Episode Six — In the Half Light

In the sixth episode of 'In the Half Light', curator Phil Mullen speaks to three writers about their experiences of growing up mixed-race in Ireland: Marguerite Penrose (author of 'Yeah But Where Are You Really From?'), Jackie McCarthy O'Brien (author of 'We Made It, Kid') and Leon Diop (author of 'Mixed Up: An Irish Boys Journey to Belonging') 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:07

So, welcome to this episode of In the Half-Lice Voices from Black Ireland. Today we'll be talking to three people who've written about their own lives and experiences of growing up mixed race in Ireland. They come from different generations and different parts of Ireland, and each has chosen to tell their story in their own way. What we're interested in today is not just the events themselves, but how memory works and what feels possible to say at different points in one life. But also how personal storytelling becomes a way of making sense of a society that leaves these experiences out of the record. So I'd like to introduce you to Marguerite, Jackie, and Leon.

SPEAKER_04 0:56

Apart from having my children, one of my proudest moments has been Grand Marshal of Limerick Pride. Limerick will always be home, and its people are my family. They have always got my back and understood and allowed me to be me. One of my biggest challenges has been attending the gala to celebrate black and Irish people. Tony Conley's menswear fitted me for a tux and I felt a million dollars. The only problem was I was growing increasingly nervous the nearer it got to the event. At one point, I called Iamar O'Neill, who was now a friend, to say that I wasn't sure if I could go. You have to go, she said, inviting me to join her and her family. Why am I so nervous? I wondered. The answer came to me at two o'clock in the morning. All my life I fought to prove that I'm Irish, that I belonged in this country. I owed so much to Limerick and my country. I felt I was being disloyal to my Jamaican side. And I had also felt a bit of a fake because I didn't really know much about Jamaica apart from my beloved Bob Marley. I got up the next morning and made a TikTok saying how I felt that I had lived my 63 years trying to make people see past my colour and embrace me as Irish. Now I said I could no longer just see myself as just being Irish. To make me feel whole, I had to be both. I didn't know how my followers would take it. I needn't have worried. Their response overwhelmingly was, you're the most Irish person we know, but you're also Jamaican. Go and be proud of who you are. As I had never felt black enough to be seen as black, and never white enough to be seen as white, where I sit can often feel like a lonely place. One comment in particular resonated with me. Maybe, Jackie, you're the one who brings us all together. I took a deep breath, put on my tucks, and off I went. I'd been asked onto the Bev the Silva music show on RT2FM before the ball. And I was unbelievably nervous. The show was coming live from the ball, and he was going to talk to me about my sporting achievements. I confided in him that I felt a bit of an imposter at the ball. And he said, I totally get where you're coming from, but you're a trailblazer and you're going to be celebrated because you've done us all proud. I went into the room and for the first time in my life, I embraced who I am. That night at the Black and Irish event, I embraced Jackie O'Holloran O'Brien McCarthy for all that I am.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

I might ask each of you to briefly say what you wrote and what made you feel it was worth putting on the page.

SPEAKER_04 4:36

True circumstances, through life's journey. Yes, and to be able to embrace the younger me and accept myself completely for who I am today.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

For me, I suppose writing the book was about finding my true identity, you know, been adopted as well as being a mixed race, has its own other set of complications. So I never really knew who I was completely. So that was part of it, and I suppose about letting people know about the experience that I've had, and also to educate people and you know that this does this did happen, and it continues to happen today. So if we don't speak up about it, people won't learn from it, and I think it will help other people to come forward and tell their story too.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Yeah, and I suppose similar to Jackie and Mag's, part of it was healing, part of it was trying to help other people understand. For me, it was about helping people to see how I went about becoming comfortable in my own identity and that journey to being happy with myself and all all of the the kind of trials and tribulations with that. And trying to equip them with the I suppose tools to help them do it too, if they if they feel like they need to do it. You know, I think about my journey growing up as a mixed-race kid and what I had to deal with in terms of like racism and identity. Um, and I feel like nowadays th those those problems are are are still there, but there's additional kind of avenues for racism to get to people like through social media and and kind of wide widespread kind of rhetoric and stuff. So yeah, that's why I wanted to write the book.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

So one of the things I'm interested in is the idea that telling your own story is not just personal, but it's a way of producing knowledge also about Ireland that doesn't usually, as I've said, make it into the official history. So when you were writing your book, did it feel that way to you, or did it feel like you were just speaking for yourselves and your own experiences?

SPEAKER_04 6:45

For me, the book was for me. I just listened to the other two answers and it's about helping others. But for me, I think the journey was a self-discovery. So if I couldn't sit down and speak to the younger me first and foremost, then it wouldn't be honest, it wouldn't feel real. And if it helps somebody along the way, that was great. And I I feel that since I've written it, it is more history because it's 64 years from birth right up to date. And when I look back in it, I see parts of Ireland that has changed. I see things that I went through as a child that were more true ignorance than they are today. We're all educated, we have social media, we we can find the answer to anything. I didn't have that as a child growing up. So Ireland has changed, but the situation for children that look like me has actually got worse rather than better. So I think it's important for me when I look at and stand over my book, I see how it has become when you look back at where things have changed or where they haven't changed and where they need to change. And I mean all of the other two speakers they are, you know, because they seem to have dealt with stuff so much younger than I have, and know who they are and got their sense of identity. But my sense of identity is still emerging and has become stronger since I put it on the book. So I would say for me, yes, definitely a history of Ireland, but for me it was a very, very personal journey.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Um I think for me I've mixed feelings on why I wrote the book. Initially, I was just writing it for myself as like, oh yeah, I might just do a little bit of this and see where I get. And uh I never expected to publish a book. I never told anybody I was writing the book either. So I didn't have anybody to be a sounding board. Um and the reason I didn't tell anyone as well was because I didn't want to make it into this big thing. I didn't want loads of opinions coming to me, you know. It was just a personal thing at the beginning. But then, you know, when I did uh give in and say, oh, you know, I'll send it in to publishers, and I had no expectation that it was going to be published. I thought absolutely not. Um so it was a big shock to me when I got the publication deal because the reality hit that, oh my God, people are going to be reading my thoughts, you know, and it sounds funny now. Well, obviously, you're writing a book, it's getting published. Yes, people are going to read it. So then, and like Jackie, as you said, like I I really felt like I, although I thought I knew myself, I knew there was a whole other side that I didn't know. Obviously, culturally, about my family, everything was a guest being adopted. Um, I came, like my adoptive parents, Nolina Michael, they were just fantastic. And I'm only using the word adoptive parents because people get confused when you're talking about different sets of parents. Um, so it's no disrespect to my mum and dad, Nolina Michael. Um, when I say adoptive parents, it's just to help people determine the all the sides. Um, but I think once I started writing, that's when the healing began for me. Um and when I say healing, we're talking nightmares, we're talking trauma, we're talking, oh my God. As the memories started coming through, they got stronger and stronger. And it was really difficult time. Um, and again, I just couldn't share with anybody because I hadn't told anyone I was doing this project, shall we say? So um, but then I got really adamant that no, I want to talk, I want to tell people, you know, that this is what's happening, you know, and continues to happen today. Um, you know, for me, it was a few different things. It was mother and baby home, it was being adopted, it was uh been mixed race, um, it was disability. Um, and probably the hardest thing, I know it might sound funny to talk about was disability for me. Um, whereas, you know, I was proud that I was black or mixed race. That was something that I'd never have given up. Like people would have asked, oh, would you like to be white, you know, just out of curiosity. And I was like, no, you know, so I I always owned that part of me, which is great from a younger age. But um when the book came out and then I I started talking to people, and I think the feedback really helps as well because when you realize that, you know, I remember this one person messaged to say after I spoken on radio, messaging to the radio station, and they they phoned me to tell me this particular story, and they said that uh their mum had been listening to the radio station and heard my story, and afterwards called the family together that evening and admitted that she had had a child. And they said we always knew there was something wrong with their mum. She had this sadness within her, and they never knew what it was. But she said after hearing my story and me speaking publicly, that it helped her say, Do you know what? It's okay to come out and say this. And, you know, as a family, they came together and they were like, we're just so grateful that we're able to help my mum now. And I think little stories like that make such a difference. Um, and I suppose the resilience side, you know, in my job, we talk a lot about resilience. Um, and we all have it. Some of us have more of it, but I think it's important to people for people to recognise their own resilience. And by hearing our stories, you know, my book is the oldest of the other two experts here. Um, so it's great that as you'd said before, Phil, that we're making history. You know, it's written down, it's gonna be forever there, you know, in centuries to come. And that's something I actually never thought about. So thanks for that thought. Um, but it is brilliant, and I hope more people, you know, that are listening today or whenever they listen to the podcast say, you know what, I'm gonna write it down as well, and I'm going to do that. Because it is, it is a brilliant thing to do, and it's it does free you an awful lot.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Yeah, like it is it is great that you're writing your personal story and like you're learning about yourself, you're learning about kind of how you dealt with things maybe in the past. Uh and it it is it is always like I think a positive thing to like own your story and write your story or connect with your story. But I do think that unintentionally there are parts of it that connect with Irish history and and and in time to come, these these kind of pieces will be looked back on and like will be used as ways of understanding, you know, uh Ireland at the time a little bit better. So my book kind of deals with from the the kind of mid-90s to today. It's talking about kind of you know some of the racism that was in the area in Tala in the 90s and the 90s, but it it goes into other things as well, like you know, I talk about my experience during COVID and how you know the death of George Floyd happens and the impact that has on me as a black Irish man, then the kind of emergence of black and Irish, but then again, like six months later, the death of George and Kentro, and it it talks about that too, and kind of the experiences that many kind of young black people were experiencing on the island and what we were doing, and then as well the the riots that happened in 2023 when when I'm talking about that and talking about how the night before the the black and Irish book had done really well at the the at the book awards, but then the next day we're thrown into essentially a race riot, you know, and how that is such a a difficult thing to to go through. And like I think there will be parts of it, parts of the books that will denote facts, like as in like this factually happened, but I think the context of how people felt about these things as well is is is equally as important to history that we often miss out on, you know, because it changes societal narratives and it changes the way that society is going, you know. So yeah, I think I I think Irish history is kind of mixed in with the story, you know. I don't think it's intentional, but it is there.

SPEAKER_03 14:52

But uh everyday lives can still kind of put a spotlight on what's actually happening, you know, and particularly from a particular point of view, uh you see it maybe differently to even the people around you. And I suppose for me, Leon, when I was reading your book, one of the things I was interested in, because you did reference George Floyd and then you referenced George and Kensho. Were you surprised at that time that there were all these marches for George Floyd? But then when it happened here on the soil itself, there wasn't the same kind of galvanizing around George and Kenshow's.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Yeah, I did notice it. And like I think there were there was two vastly different contexts. The the first context was, you know, it wasn't here, it was over there, and you know, oh god, isn't that awful over there? And it was the same with Black and Irish was starting, you know. Uh a lot of the discussion was on the racism that was happening in America, and like, you know, I'd seen people write like actual letters on a screen that thank God we don't have racism in Ireland. Like, what? Yeah, you know, like am I going mad here? You know, so so yeah, I do think that there's a difference in the kind of mindset when things are happening, you know, abroad uh to here. And even even some of the rhetoric that was used, like around both of the Georges who were killed, there you you know, but very quickly there was uh you know rhetoric that these people were not good people, or very quickly used, you know, but that didn't land with George Floyd as much as I think it did with with George and Kencho here in Ireland, you know, and um yeah, obviously the the kind of circumstances around George and Kencho's death and stuff like that gave people an out, I feel uh they they it well they felt like they had an out and they were like, oh well, you know, that's you know, it's tragic, but you know, it is what it is. And that that for me was was sad. Um I think we need to recognise that the level of solidarity needs it needs to be consistent across the board. Like you need to show as much venom for what's happening abroad as to what's happening here. Uh but yeah, I do think that there was a a difference between the two.

SPEAKER_03 16:59

That's really interesting. And I suppose looking back when you're writing your book, are there experiences from growing up that only made sense to you now and that you couldn't have written about say at the time when they were happening when you were younger?

SPEAKER_02 17:17

Um yeah, I think you'll always get that, but definitely in relation to the racism, definitely, because um like I was born in 74. Um, the only black people or mixed race people were on television. Um as I say in my book, the first time I met somebody of, you know, mixed race or different colour to myself, apart from white, was when I was in fifth class, half of half a year in fifth class. Um I met my friend Katron Shake, and um she had Irish Indian background. So everything to me was, you know, not real, as in I could see celebrities on TV, and yeah, they were the same colour as me or darker. Um, but I never could relate to anybody, you know, humanly, you know, shall we say, um, from day to day. So every reference was somebody that was on TV. And my parents were great, like they always made me feel proud of who I was. And yes, I was always the only black or mixed-race person everywhere we went. So I suppose for the, yeah, the only ones, the only one in the village, shall we say. But and you know, that was really difficult at times because obviously everybody's staring at you, you know. But my parents sold that to me as in, you're so beautiful, you know, they love look to see it, you know, nobody has seen anybody like you. They sold it to me in a positive manner, which is really good. They didn't instill fear, they didn't say, right now, when we go here, don't worry if somebody does this to you, you know, or says this. You know, to me, it was sold positively. So that helped me be like people will say to me, God, you're probably the most positive person I've ever met, you know. But I think that all helped me, even when I did, you know, get racially abused at times. Um, and it was hurtful, but I didn't, you know, let it take over. You know, I might get angry, you know, I get annoyed, or you know, I'd, you know, confront the person, but I didn't hold it into me for the rest of my life. You know, every situation is so different, but I definitely think it it helps me to be that type of person. Can you make more sense of it now than you could back then, do you think? Yeah, definitely. And I think I don't know whether that's wisdom or, you know, when you look back hindsight, um, and I suppose educationally as well. And as uh Leon was saying, like and Jackie was saying earlier on, you know, back then we would have said always ignorance when people were, you know, racist and there's no excuse for it now. You know, it's it's just people don't even realize what they're saying. And for me, language is a big thing, and I'm really, you know, into the way people speak. Um, and the language that's you know become the norm now is completely different and it's quite negative a lot, like you know, everything it's it's unbelievable. Like that's a negative, you know. So we're all all our language is not just about racial. Um, so I think that's really important as well. But I think, yeah, definitely looking back, I have a lot more hindsight about stuff that I got through that I just considered the norm because it was the norm to me. Whereas I look back now and go, Oh my god, can't believe that happened, you know. So that's that's a big light bulb moment, many a time going back, you know.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

And Jackie, you you talk about not going to school from the age of 12. Can you make sense of that? So were you able to make sense of it back then and all of the other stuff that was happening in your life?

SPEAKER_04 20:35

Yeah, it's it's it's interesting to hear you say that your parents uh said you were beautiful and you were, you know, for me, my parents really they were there for me. They were as much as they could, they equipped me in the funniest ways. You know, growing up, my dad gave me a stick one time with a nail in it and said, anybody that calls your names, go out and you know, give them a whack of the stick. Yeah, really, and people find this, oh my god, your dad did that. But I think he knew who I was as a person that that stick would never be used. So his way of saying what he actually said to me was, Jackie, your skin colour is never going to change, it's with you till the day you die. So you can either decide to go out and fight, or you can make something new yourself in spite of it and be yourself. And the interesting thing for me in writing the book, as I was writing it, looking back now, is there things that I couldn't do back then? Yes, most definitely. Because as a child of colour, I was the only one. Like yourself, I didn't see another person of colour unless it was on Tarzan or Elephant Boy or Dektari, which were the programs that were there. And then at 12 or 13, when two young Lads came into the shop that were at a handball tournament not far from my home. When I came up from under the counter, all three of us screamed because the last thing we were expecting was to see somebody that looked like one another, and that was a penny drop moment. Hang on a minute. I always think in Ireland being uh a person of mixed heritage is the loneliest place in the world growing up because you you you're not black enough to be part of the black community, and you're not white enough to be. And even today I get messages on TikToks or whatever, and they go, Oh, you're not the first black person to have played for Ireland, you're the first mixed race person. And more often than not, this is coming from a black person. Yeah, I know. Reminding me, and it makes me feel like oh, I don't belong there either. You know, and I would never say a mixed race. I'd I'd say, Oh, my mother was a human, my father was a human. There's only one race, so I'm I'm I'm not a mix of something, you know, and then learning, you know, biracial, the words for biracial, learning mixed heritage. I did not grow up in that era. I was black, and I often sit back and I think, you know, when I got called the N-word, and I was the black, and I was this, and that, and now people want me to change that, and I don't belong in either. It's a very frustrating, lonely place. So, having wrote the book and studied myself, so to speak, and my low self-esteem of trying to please somebody, writing the book made me look back and say, God, I wish I could have held little Jackie and told her, it's okay to be you. You're unique in your own way, you've got the best of both worlds. So there's definitely a difference from today, having written it, to looking back at younger me. You know, it's it's it's knowledge, it's hard work. Yeah, definitely. It's really hard work sitting to write a book. And I wouldn't be the most articulate person, but it all came from my heart.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

Yeah, and I noticed anybody who would agree with that child.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Yeah, completely disagree with that.

SPEAKER_04 24:26

Well, I suppose that comes back to self-esteem again, and it's like when you grow up being told, um, my mother being told, get her a cleaning job, because that's all she'll ever do. You know, and it's funny, we spoke about George Floyd. My first time public speaking, so to speak, was trying at the deep end in the Claire Byrne show in his first anniversary. I was there as the famous soccer player, which I didn't see myself as. And I remember saying to Claire five minutes before it went on, I said, Claire, I don't know why I'm here. You know, all these people are far more articulate than me. But in that day I found my voice, and it was funny. She gave me the closing argument when I had relaxed and thought, she's finished with me. And then she turned, so how do you feel? And I'm like, and I just took a deep breath in that moment, and I remembered all the life lessons I had been given in a simple or maybe unique way to me from my parents, and I spoke my truth, and within that, I became more whole as a person. I I I embraced my sense of identity in a way, and it was like I'm entitled to sit at this table. I do have a story to tell, it's about resilience, a word that I've only come to know. The family I grew up in was like, just keep getting up. We've got your back, we're here for you. The limerick that I grew up in was that's our Jackie. So I didn't understand the word resilience, and it's only when I sit and I reread the book I go, oh god, I got back up from that on that moment, yeah. And you put yourself back in it, and it's reliving it, and it's feeling the pain, but then coming to your last chapter and looking and going, Wow, that's what resilience means. I did keep getting up in spite of, and where did that come from? And I embraced that as my mixed heritage, a bit of both the Irish fighting spirit, the Jamaican love of people and wanting to connect, and now I embrace all of me. Yeah, so for me, when I say the book was about me, I had to be able to love myself, and I didn't up until those penny drop moments.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

Absolutely. I think what you said there about the language is really interesting because, like that, you know, the words mixed race, I never called myself mixed race. I was black and that was it. So then when all this terminology started coming up, I got really confused, and I like still to this day, I don't know whether to say I'm black or a mixed race. So, and like when my book came out, it's all black, black, black, you know, and now I'm looking, even last night when I was looking through it, the book and I was reading things, I was like, I wouldn't write that now. It's like so that my book came out in 22, so it was finished in 21. So the difference in Ireland, shall we say, in those years has grown so much. And you know, I was flicking through looking for a chapter last night, and there were so many things I'd written, so that's all completely different now. So even though, as we were saying earlier on, like, you know, there's a lot more black people, mixed race people in Ireland now, the racism is is even bigger, you know, and that's what's frightening. So I get what you say about like I'd never have used biracial, you know, that's probably all American, but what's happening in the States is a sure thing that's gonna travel to Britain and Ireland. Um, so I that's what I'm always saying to people because people do turn around and say, Oh, yeah, but that's in America, like say George Floyd. And I'm like, but you don't get it, like that's what's coming here, you know, and we can see it creeping in over the last few years. It's here, like the riots, as Leon was saying earlier on, in 2023. That was, I think, a big shockwave for Ireland to that how quickly that escalated, you know, overnight. This is out in our streets, you know, and we see America as for the country that it is, it's huge to so many people. Ireland is very small. If this continues to grow, which it is, how bad is it going to get? You know, what is it going to be like out there? So I think that's I think that's quite frightening for, you know, everything and everyone today.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

Yeah, I think going back to what Jackie said though, in terms of the language and how the language is changing. And it's I think it's a generational thing because we were just black. Yeah. There was no grey area, let's say. You were just black and you were racialized as black. Yeah. And it feels sometimes like you've been re-racialized into a mixed race identity. But Leon, you're kind of probably grew up more in that generation of mixed race.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:28

Or how did you kind of identify, or I suppose for all of us, we were labelled and defined before we ever got to define ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

So where did you fit in in all of this?

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Um, where I fit in was where I was put. So I was the mixed-race kid because there were black kids telling me that I was the mixed-raised kid, or or othered me to the point where I was like, okay, I'm not, I'm not one of these guys, you know. Um, but all of my experiences were the same, you know. Like I was experiencing racism, I was experiencing racial violence. When we were in groups, they weren't saying, you know, all you black kids and you and you one mixed-raised kid that's with them, you know. It was just you black such and such group of X, Y, and Z. Yeah, that like that that was difficult because like as a kid you just want to fit in, don't you? Like, you just want to be one of the uh group of something, you know, and I think you know, as you were saying, Jackie, it is it's a it can be a very lonely place, you know. So that's where that's where I was, but I I had to internally deal with that and say, well, no, no, actually, hold on. Like my experiences dictate otherwise, and internally I believe otherwise now, you know. Like actually, I wasn't even mixed-race, I was a half-cast. That's that that was why I absolutely hate that word. Yeah, I know horrible words, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

So many people use it. I don't know whether where it came from, but I've still heard people saying it, and then people that are mixed race or black don't mind it, but to me, that's like something that was taken from the bin. Um, I it's nearly as bad as the N-word, in my opinion. Well, yeah, it's worse.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Yeah, yeah, I yeah, like yeah, they like they they have their they both have their really negative conversation.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Don't they?

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Yeah, you know, um yeah, and uh like but no one in the area understood what half-cast meant. Like I think uh like I'm sure there was even like people in authority that shouldn't have been using that term that were using that yeah, oh you're that half-cast kid, that's what I mean. So, you know, it definitely is um like an othering that that happens, but you like in internally you need to go, well, hold on, where where like I can't go through my whole life telling myself I'm half of something, you know. I am 100% of me, that's it, you know. Uh and that 100% is made up of many different things, but I'm 100% of all of those things too. You know, I'm 100% Irish, 100% San Agradez. I'm like think that's a great way. You know, that's that's that's the way I was I was starting to view it. I went from half of a couple of things to two things, um, and that that really helped me, you know, like that was an exponential growth in in in in my identity. Um, I noticed a lot of young kids that still go through that. They're not enough of they feel like they're not enough of something, but they are, you know, like you are, and like I I'd use it interchangeably now. Like like I'd I would feel comfortable referring to myself as a black man, I'd feel comfortable referring to myself as a mixed race man. I prescribe to the belief that we are human and that's it. But I also understand that these racial racialized constructs are also they exist and we have to navigate those too, and that's what a lot of people see the world through. They see the world through that spectrum of of colour and stuff as well.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

So I try and use that language, but ultimately I would like to get to the point where everyone is like, so that like you know, we have bigger problems to deal with, you know, it doesn't matter what they are, we have a client that's yeah, but people are fascinated with it, like it's it's such a big thing about colour, and you know, I think when I wrote um my book and say friends and family were reading in it, you know, and you know, that was the hard thing for me. It was more I strangers you're okay with because they don't know you personally, but for your family and friends, it was very difficult for me. Like I remember the day that my book arrived, I was working, I was working from home, and obviously everybody is so excited, you know, about this book. I was terrified, and I was like, Oh my god, people are gonna read this now, you know. So, what am I going to do? So the book arrives, my sister comes over to the house. So it's my mum, dad, and my sister, and my friend Liz was there as well. And they were like literally ripping open the box and the excitement. And the first thing my sister said is, right, we're all gonna sit down now and we're going to read the book together. And I was like, No, we're not. I was like, I'm not reading that, I'm not sitting here while you're reading that or whatever. And she was so shocked, she was like, but why not? And I was like, Oh no, I couldn't. So my nerves would be gone, I wouldn't be able to. So they all individually read the book, and anyway, and I I remember I finished work, say at about five that day, and they were all stuck into it. I was literally shaking, what are they gonna think, you know, about things I've said, you know, and um like they came out and they were like, God, they were blown away, you know. And in particular, like my mom, my dad, and my sister were like, Oh, we didn't think that could be much about us in the book. And I was like, But you're my family, of course, you know. And they were blown away because I was a very private person, I never spoke about anything, even stuff that happens, like racist, you know, abuse and things. I might come home and say, Oh, this happens, and I'd shrug it off and keep it to myself and deal with it like internally, as Liam was saying and yourself. That's how I think we got through things, and that's the lonely part, as you said. Because you're afraid to upset. Like, if I told my sister, like Kira and I are the same age, I'm docted. So there's only three months between us, so she's like really overprotective of me. Like, if I told her half the things that happened to me, she'd probably be in my joy today, you know. So you have to kind of really dampen down things when it happens to keep everybody under control and that nobody's upset. So um, for them, for me, their reaction to the book, and you know, they were like, We're so proud of you. And you know, I think that gave me the strength. And Jackie, as you said, that when you got to a stage and you look back and saw how resilient you were. Like I was the same, I thought nothing of everything that happened to me. I was like, Oh, yeah, that, yeah, so that happened, you know. You know, oh, you know, I ended up having an operation, I ended up paralyzed, and then yeah, blah, blah, blah. But I just shrugged all that off, and then after I wrote the book, I look back and I was like, How did I get through any of that? Yeah, you know, so that's why I love the word resilience now. And I'm always telling people, friends, you know, we are all resilient. I'm pointing out the resilience, it might be a slightest thing, you know, somebody that has depression and they're still able to get up, get themselves to work, that's resilience, you know. So it's I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

Yeah, but usually it works best if you have a support. Yeah, it's hard to be resilient on your own because it puts it back onto the individual to fix whatever's wrong, yeah, as opposed to the structures around them and the systems around them. Yeah, you know, and without any support.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Thinking Aloud, Thinking Together is a new conversation series from Skeen in partnership with the Museum of Literature Ireland, amplifying voices that have been silenced in Irish cultural life. It brings together artists, writers, and thinkers whose work offers a radical new perspective on existing narratives. Thinking Aloud Thinking Together provides a space to discuss points of connection and concern in contemporary culture. These conversations explore topics that are seldom spoken of in mainstream public discourse in Ireland, such as identity, relationships, shame, exclusion, and reversing the impact of erasure from history and culture. It offers a space for us to reconsider our relationship with one another, to reimagine the ways in which we live, and to rewrite the legacies we leave behind. Supported by the Roan Trust and the Arts Council of Ireland, produced by Ian Mullaney, music by Ushin Walch Pilo. For more information, visit skiingpress.com.